O:9:"MagpieRSS":23:{s:6:"parser";i:0;s:12:"current_item";a:0:{}s:5:"items";a:25:{i:0;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:69:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-550671848924546548";s:9:"published";s:29:"2011-04-03T01:34:52.787-06:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2011-04-03T01:34:52.787-06:00";s:5:"title";s:53:"Thanks for standing firm with your Peace Testimony...";s:12:"atom_content";s:107:"Thanks for standing firm with your Peace Testimony.  Mormons (some of us) really do have a Peace Testimony.";s:9:"link_edit";s:104:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/6253541004285096632/comments/default/550671848924546548";s:9:"link_self";s:104:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/6253541004285096632/comments/default/550671848924546548";s:4:"link";s:110:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2008/09/why-we-remember.html?showComment=1301816092787#c550671848924546548";s:11:"author_name";s:16:"Thomas Gail Haws";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04098809959246681881";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}i:1;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:70:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-1017447741428908566";s:9:"published";s:29:"2011-02-21T08:02:03.148-07:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2011-02-21T08:02:03.148-07:00";s:5:"title";s:53:"Good blog. I&#39;m a new blogger looking for faith...";s:12:"atom_content";s:297:"Good blog. I&#39;m a new blogger looking for faithful LDS bloggers with moderate to progressive views. You may be interested in my piece on &quot;Temperate Pacifism&quot;<br /><br />http://www.moderatebutpassionate.com/p/temperate-pacifism.html<br /><br />keep up the good work!<br />-Grant Vaughn";s:9:"link_edit";s:104:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/693327572415993688/comments/default/1017447741428908566";s:9:"link_self";s:104:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/693327572415993688/comments/default/1017447741428908566";s:4:"link";s:135:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2010/01/why-im-starting-to-blog-here-again-this.html?showComment=1298300523148#c1017447741428908566";s:11:"author_name";s:26:"Passionate Moderate Mormon";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/07133789257179902461";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}i:2;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:70:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-6746616434101093797";s:9:"published";s:29:"2009-12-04T14:35:57.292-07:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2009-12-04T14:35:57.292-07:00";s:5:"title";s:53:"I skimmed my post here for the first time in a lon...";s:12:"atom_content";s:2376:"I skimmed my post here for the first time in a long time and have to comment that I wish I&#39;d never set in print the words &quot;I&#39;m against war&quot;.  I actually considering editing them right here and now to avoid people misquoting me in the future.  I *do* think I laid out pretty well what I meant by writing that in the rest of my post but let me elaborate just in case any doubt remains.<br /><br />*I&#39;m not against justified, defensive war.*  That would be unwise, immoral in my opinion (because of all the innocent people you would refuse to defend, because of the evil-doers you would be refusing to bring to justice, etc.), stupid, impractical, against my larger beliefs as informed by scripture study, modern prophets, and other leaders I admire from through the ages, etc. etc. etc.<br /><br />I simply feel that an offensive, Imperial occupatory war -- with all of its attendant problems -- should be a measure of absolute last resort and should be as limited and focused as possible.  Frighteningly the mainstream caricature of &#39;patriotism&#39; seems to be trying to dictate a  perversion of this where wars of offense should be a first line of defense, are an accepted means of strengthening and expanding the empire, and where *perpetual war* should be hailed as the epitome of a strong state.<br /><br />This is unwise, immoral, and rife with tragic outcomes.  However the current foreign conflicts might have begun, it is increasingly clear that our foreign policy no longer attempts to limit war to:<br /><br />&quot;times and circumstances when nations are justified, in fact have an obligation, to fight for family, for liberty, and against tyranny, threat, and oppression.&quot; (Pres. Hinckley, April 2003 Conference)<br /><br />That&#39;s all.  So I&#39;m not always against war.  I&#39;m not.  There are wars I can support.  In fact, before I&#39;d studied it out, I supported our initial attempt to go after bin Laden in Afghanistan (I wish that was what had really intended).  I supported our initial attack on Iraq (I wouldn&#39;t now, but I accepted the propaganda given then).  I do not support our continued war in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, or elsewhere.<br /><br />If somebody can give me evidence that these are actually defensive, justified, focused wars then please do.  It will free up much of my time for a better cause.";s:9:"link_edit";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/7240177327282153766/comments/default/6746616434101093797";s:9:"link_self";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/7240177327282153766/comments/default/6746616434101093797";s:4:"link";s:123:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2008/02/reflection-on-war-on-terror.html?showComment=1259962557292#c6746616434101093797";s:11:"author_name";s:4:"Doug";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/02005947277425774328";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}i:3;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:70:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-6609036272941253253";s:9:"published";s:29:"2009-07-28T16:30:09.223-06:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2009-07-28T16:30:09.223-06:00";s:5:"title";s:53:"Oh hey, I never came back and responded to comment...";s:12:"atom_content";s:471:"Oh hey, I never came back and responded to comments here.<br /><br />Stephen and SeaGal, thank you for your kind words of encouragement.<br /><br />Todd -- I&#39;m not exactly convinced that all co-operative movements devolve into the worst kind of socialism . . . but I am super encouraged to see that you finally came out against our wars ( <a href="http://is.gd/1RFyb" rel="nofollow">hooray!</a> )  -- even if only some of your arguments are now the same as my own. :)";s:9:"link_edit";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5734232286417425214/comments/default/6609036272941253253";s:9:"link_self";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5734232286417425214/comments/default/6609036272941253253";s:4:"link";s:129:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2008/04/finishing-job-and-fighting-to-win.html?showComment=1248820209223#c6609036272941253253";s:11:"author_name";s:4:"Doug";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/02005947277425774328";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}i:4;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:70:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-2732483896916482208";s:9:"published";s:29:"2008-11-14T18:53:00.000-07:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2008-11-14T18:53:00.000-07:00";s:5:"title";s:38:"I ♥ your blog! Thanks for sharing :)";s:12:"atom_content";s:38:"I ♥ your blog! Thanks for sharing :)";s:9:"link_edit";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/6253541004285096632/comments/default/2732483896916482208";s:9:"link_self";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/6253541004285096632/comments/default/2732483896916482208";s:4:"link";s:111:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2008/09/why-we-remember.html?showComment=1226713980000#c2732483896916482208";s:11:"author_name";s:20:"Trying to Stay Calm!";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/13780614646408617149";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}i:5;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:70:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-1956488136088776897";s:9:"published";s:29:"2008-09-23T09:29:00.000-06:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2008-09-23T09:29:00.000-06:00";s:5:"title";s:53:"Frank,That is an excellent point.Along the lines o...";s:12:"atom_content";s:455:"Frank,<BR/><BR/>That is an excellent point.<BR/><BR/>Along the lines of: 'Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it'<BR/><BR/>Trying to find a productive way forward with a world event like this isn't quite the same thing as trying to pretend it -- and all the responses to it (good and bad) -- never happened (which is certainly unwise).<BR/><BR/>As always, I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your many blogs. Thank you for the link.";s:9:"link_edit";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/6253541004285096632/comments/default/1956488136088776897";s:9:"link_self";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/6253541004285096632/comments/default/1956488136088776897";s:4:"link";s:111:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2008/09/why-we-remember.html?showComment=1222183740000#c1956488136088776897";s:11:"author_name";s:4:"Doug";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/02005947277425774328";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}i:6;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:70:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-8724471103678878405";s:9:"published";s:29:"2008-09-19T16:38:00.000-06:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2008-09-19T16:38:00.000-06:00";s:5:"title";s:53:"We should never forget, because if we do, we'll ne...";s:12:"atom_content";s:197:"We should never forget, because if we do, <A HREF="http://economicspolitics.blogspot.com/2008/09/911-may-we-never-forget-but-may-we-also.html" REL="nofollow">we'll never come to understand why.</A>";s:9:"link_edit";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/6253541004285096632/comments/default/8724471103678878405";s:9:"link_self";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/6253541004285096632/comments/default/8724471103678878405";s:4:"link";s:111:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2008/09/why-we-remember.html?showComment=1221863880000#c8724471103678878405";s:11:"author_name";s:13:"Frank Staheli";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/01822334061980912687";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}i:7;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:70:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-2180620571935934894";s:9:"published";s:29:"2008-08-25T10:50:00.000-06:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2008-08-25T10:50:00.000-06:00";s:5:"title";s:53:"Oh, the company we attract.Doug, as always, I am y...";s:12:"atom_content";s:1063:"Oh, the company we attract.<BR/><BR/>Doug, as always, I am your friend.  I have neglected posting on here because I haven't known what to say.  You may think me brainwashed if you like, as I'm sure Stephen Wellington would suggest... <BR/><BR/>I can't for the life of me figure out how someone can consider socialism to be moral in <I>any sense of the word</I>.  Socialism is <B>NEVER</B> moral; it is an anti-moral atheology that depends on cooperative punishment, etc. but always results in tyranny... always has, always will.  It is the very plan of the adversary; to appear right, and lead even the elect astray.  This comment isn't really for you though, it's for the attracted ones.  I just can't bring myself to post on his website.  I read a few of the articles on it, and was stunned to find socialism promoted.  I started hearing that old song from "My Turn On Earth"... the one that goes "I have a plan that will save every man.  I will force them to live righteously..."<BR/><BR/>That said, I still can't and don't agree with your argument on the war.";s:9:"link_edit";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5734232286417425214/comments/default/2180620571935934894";s:9:"link_self";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5734232286417425214/comments/default/2180620571935934894";s:4:"link";s:129:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2008/04/finishing-job-and-fighting-to-win.html?showComment=1219683000000#c2180620571935934894";s:11:"author_name";s:12:"Toadicus Rex";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/18201390155063750211";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}i:8;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:69:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-307417664090630287";s:9:"published";s:29:"2008-07-10T02:01:00.000-06:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2008-07-10T02:01:00.000-06:00";s:5:"title";s:53:"Doug et al,  I enjoyed this story on Taiwan/China ...";s:12:"atom_content";s:324:"Doug et al,  <BR/><BR/>I enjoyed this story on Taiwan/China and the thawing in their 60 year separation:<BR/><BR/>http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20080708_taiwan_declares_peace_on_china/<BR/><BR/>It's apropos to Carissa's comment re China as the world's superpower.  I'd  certainly appreciate any comments you guys have.";s:9:"link_edit";s:104:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5493317307384305145/comments/default/307417664090630287";s:9:"link_self";s:104:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5493317307384305145/comments/default/307417664090630287";s:4:"link";s:102:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2008/04/freedom.html?showComment=1215676860000#c307417664090630287";s:11:"author_name";s:5:"Silas";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/14317050367961744200";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}i:9;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:70:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-8376985081435820379";s:9:"published";s:29:"2008-06-20T11:37:00.000-06:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2008-06-20T11:37:00.000-06:00";s:5:"title";s:53:"Thanks Connor.  I actually amended my original pos...";s:12:"atom_content";s:710:"Thanks Connor.  I actually amended my original post now to include the phrase "golden rule" since that sums up what I was trying to comment on so well.<BR/><BR/>That's one of the things that I liked about Ron Paul in the Presidential debates.  He asked more than once how we would feel as a nation if China, for instance, decided to invade and occupy Texas [or some U.S. region] in the interest of their national security.  And then they established <I>permanent military bases</I> there from which they could intimidate and manage other nations like Mexico and Haiti . . .  I get the impression that a relatively small number of people were really listening when he asked "Golden Rule" questions like that. :)";s:9:"link_edit";s:104:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/141282941656261567/comments/default/8376985081435820379";s:9:"link_self";s:104:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/141282941656261567/comments/default/8376985081435820379";s:4:"link";s:124:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2008/06/small-note-on-worth-of-souls.html?showComment=1213983420000#c8376985081435820379";s:11:"author_name";s:4:"Doug";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/02005947277425774328";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}i:10;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:68:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-11622613632013535";s:9:"published";s:29:"2008-06-19T11:58:00.000-06:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2008-06-19T11:58:00.000-06:00";s:5:"title";s:53:"Great points, Doug.  It's amazing how often we ove...";s:12:"atom_content";s:145:"Great points, Doug.  It's amazing how often we overlook the golden rule when dealing with people of other faiths, nationalities, and ethnicities.";s:9:"link_edit";s:102:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/141282941656261567/comments/default/11622613632013535";s:9:"link_self";s:102:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/141282941656261567/comments/default/11622613632013535";s:4:"link";s:122:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2008/06/small-note-on-worth-of-souls.html?showComment=1213898280000#c11622613632013535";s:11:"author_name";s:13:"Connor Boyack";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/14758094738785016746";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}i:11;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:70:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-9113835314237209497";s:9:"published";s:29:"2008-06-07T14:50:00.000-06:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2008-06-07T14:50:00.000-06:00";s:5:"title";s:53:"Toadicus rex,You said:First, this isn't an "offens...";s:12:"atom_content";s:834:"Toadicus rex,<BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/><BR/>First, this isn't an "offensive war" <BR/><BR/>Okay, whether you agree or disagree with the war, you cannot say it is not offensive.  Even President Bush would disagree with you.  Three times in one speech he says it:<BR/><BR/>"We're on the offense against the terrorists on every battlefront -- and we'll accept nothing less than complete victory."<BR/><BR/>"We're on the offensive, and we will not rest, we will not retreat, and we will not withdraw from the fight, until this threat to civilization has been removed."<BR/><BR/>"First, we're determined to prevent terrorist attacks before they occur. So we're taking the fight to the enemy. The best way to protect America is to stay on the offense"<BR/><BR/>September 5, 2006 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/09/20060905-4.html";s:9:"link_edit";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/7240177327282153766/comments/default/9113835314237209497";s:9:"link_self";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/7240177327282153766/comments/default/9113835314237209497";s:4:"link";s:123:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2008/02/reflection-on-war-on-terror.html?showComment=1212871800000#c9113835314237209497";s:11:"author_name";s:7:"Carissa";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/17988930527965599270";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}i:12;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:70:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-7741906410190642476";s:9:"published";s:29:"2008-06-03T11:32:00.000-06:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2008-06-03T11:32:00.000-06:00";s:5:"title";s:53:"That family analogy is definitely a USA-centric vi...";s:12:"atom_content";s:1777:"That family analogy is definitely a USA-centric viewpoint.  But, tell me where would the U.S. get the authority to be the "spanking father"?  Because we are a superpower?  If China becomes the world superpower someday, does it automatically gain the authority to do the spanking?  Yikes.  Our constitution is where our government gets its authority from.  Ezra Taft Benson said:<BR/><BR/>"Nothing in the Constitution grants that the President shall have the privilege of offering himself as a world leader. <BR/>Nothing in the Constitution nor in logic grants to the President of the United States or to Congress the power to influence the political life of other countries, to “uplift” their cultures, to bolster their economies, to feed their peoples or even to defend them against their enemies." United States Foreign Policy, 1968<BR/><BR/>Another interesting quote is this one:<BR/><BR/>"Even if it were desirable, America is not strong enough to police the world by military force. If that attempt is made, the blessings of liberty will be replaced by coercion and tyranny at home. Our Christian ideals cannot be exported to other lands by dollars and guns. Persuasion and example are the methods taught by the Carpenter of Nazareth, and if we believe in Christianity we should try to advance our ideals by his methods. We cannot practice might and force abroad and retain freedom at home. We cannot talk world cooperation and practice power politics." Rep. Howard Buffet, Sen. Robert Taft's Campaign Manager, 1952<BR/><BR/>We seriously need to re-think our role in the world.  Because our unauthorized "spanking father" role is what inspired 9-11 in the first place.  So much good could come about if we just led the world by persuasion and example instead of force.";s:9:"link_edit";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5493317307384305145/comments/default/7741906410190642476";s:9:"link_self";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5493317307384305145/comments/default/7741906410190642476";s:4:"link";s:103:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2008/04/freedom.html?showComment=1212514320000#c7741906410190642476";s:11:"author_name";s:7:"Carissa";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/17988930527965599270";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}i:13;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:70:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-7334785227267389717";s:9:"published";s:29:"2008-05-17T22:30:00.000-06:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2008-05-17T22:30:00.000-06:00";s:5:"title";s:53:"Wow, this post was moving and beautiful.  Thank yo...";s:12:"atom_content";s:314:"Wow, this post was moving and beautiful.  Thank you for being a brave and kind-hearted speaker of truth.  My heart aches over what our nation has done.  I hope for a day when we as a nation, live up to who we were intended to be.  In your own way, here on your blog, I believe you are helping with that. Thank you.";s:9:"link_edit";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5734232286417425214/comments/default/7334785227267389717";s:9:"link_self";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5734232286417425214/comments/default/7334785227267389717";s:4:"link";s:129:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2008/04/finishing-job-and-fighting-to-win.html?showComment=1211085000000#c7334785227267389717";s:11:"author_name";s:7:"Sea_Gal";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/08398864075505081201";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}i:14;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:70:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-4275693247207941281";s:9:"published";s:29:"2008-05-01T22:26:00.000-06:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2008-05-01T22:26:00.000-06:00";s:5:"title";s:53:"Hi Jerry.  Thank you for taking the time to read a...";s:12:"atom_content";s:3417:"Hi Jerry.  Thank you for taking the time to read and comment.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure where you're going with your question.<BR/><BR/>The majority of Americans vote "for the war" it seems but the majority do not actually serve overseas.  This is a problem I have with everybody - not just Mormons.  On my site, I take my own people to task for it - but it is certainly not a uniquely Mormon kind of shortsightedness or hypocrisy.<BR/><BR/>Mormons are certainly not "under-represented" in the military as you seem to believe.  Although it is true that there have always been some Mormons who have given lip service to 'patriotic duty' and then shirked it through whatever means possible, it has always been true that many other Americans did so as well.<BR/><BR/>Mormons are not some monolithic block cut from the same cloth, but if you were to identify a trend it would probably tend towards 'more likely than average to actually serve in the military'.  I often teach a night class at BYU, for instance, and in every class I teach there are students in ROTC or National Guard or some branch of service who are being deployed soon.  I've never engaged any in discussion of our foreign policy (I teach computers and try to stick to that) and I actually admire these students for being willing to serve our great nation.<BR/><BR/>Sometimes I worry about the perhaps 'over-the-top' support for military endeavors and uncritical acceptance of all Dept. of Defense propaganda I find locally.  But if you somehow believe that Mormons are erring the other way sir, you may be happy to discover that you are mistaken.  You'll find the leadership of the Church is filled with people who signed up for actual dangerous military duty -- even when they could have gotten out of it.  And that kind of brave dedication permeates the Church from what I've seen.<BR/><BR/>I, personally, oppose the use and abuse of such trusting patriotic people.  But I've never known Mormons as a people to be the type of chickenhawks we find in our current Congressional and Executive leadership.<BR/><BR/>I know you don't want 'one or two' examples, but it just boggles my mind that you are unaware that it wouldn't be 'one or two' examples.<BR/><BR/>In my multi-generational Mormon family I'm perhaps the first (and this is fairly typical of 'Mormon' families that I know personally) not to sign up for the armed services.  But then again I don't agree with what we're using them for [so you might disagree with my views but please don't call me a hypocrite].<BR/><BR/>My father quit college when college would have kept him out of Vietnam and signed up to go to battle with the Communist forces half-way across the world.  He stayed for a second (optional) tour.  He had already served a Church foreign proselyting mission but he didn't feel that absolved him of his patriotic duty.  He believed in our great nation and the ideals we were trying to help nurture and promote abroad amongst other peoples.<BR/><BR/>He and I don't see eye-to-eye on that Vietnam war (as you might imagine) but I truly admire his patriotism and service regardless.<BR/><BR/>In my small neighborhood in Utah where I've moved (from Arizona) and on out to the larger congregations of Mormons throughout the nation, there are literally hundreds of thousands of patriotic men and women like my Father who backed up their "votes" and "lip service" with actual live service.";s:9:"link_edit";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5493317307384305145/comments/default/4275693247207941281";s:9:"link_self";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5493317307384305145/comments/default/4275693247207941281";s:4:"link";s:103:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2008/04/freedom.html?showComment=1209702360000#c4275693247207941281";s:11:"author_name";s:4:"Doug";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/02005947277425774328";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}i:15;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:70:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-7421067613752662016";s:9:"published";s:29:"2008-05-01T16:07:00.000-06:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2008-05-01T16:07:00.000-06:00";s:5:"title";s:53:"Excuse me if I digress somewhat from the debate bu...";s:12:"atom_content";s:2284:"Excuse me if I digress somewhat from the debate but I am wondering if someone can answer my persistent and nagging question.  Why is it that the majority of Mormons vote for war and yet the majority of Mormons do not serve in the war.  Now don't give me the one or two examples .  I know there are Mormons serving now and in past wars.  However, I am talking about the Church as a whole.  If you want a war; if you vote for a candidate that wants war, then pick up your gun and go to the front.  Tell your children to do likewise.  I have a Mormon neighbor who has never found a war he didn't like.  He was all for the Viet Nam war.  He is all for the current war but darned if he ever felt obligated to put his life nor the lives of his children on the line.  They were all conveniently on missions, in school or starting a family.  You name it. They were just too busy to put themselves in harms way for their convictions.  They found it very conenient to let other people's children die for their war.  There are supposedly 12 million Mormons in the world.  If only 1/10 of them voluntered the armed forces would be increased by 1.2 million.  Can you imagine what 1.2 million additional soldiers would have meant at the beginning of this war?  Instead, the average Mormon is willing to sit comfortably in his little McMansion watching this war of their making destroy the lives of countless other families.  Case in point is Romney and his eight children.  He is a proponent of every  military shenanigan the US ever conjured up.  But he was just too busy to put his life on the line from Viet Nam on.  Even his kids refuse to serve,with no apparent shame, while other children carry the brunt.  <BR/><BR/>I guess its like what my Mormon neighbor said,  "Some times a war is the only way to solve things.  I wish we didn't have to wage war but some things are worth fighting for." <BR/><BR/>But when I asked him when he and his kids are going over to Iraq.  He said "Church work was more important.  His son is on a mission in japan.  His daughter is planning on her third kid and the other son is in pre-med at BYU.  There just is no time.  Beside we have a professional army.  They should have known better before they signed up."<BR/><BR/>I had to leave the room before I puked.";s:9:"link_edit";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5493317307384305145/comments/default/7421067613752662016";s:9:"link_self";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5493317307384305145/comments/default/7421067613752662016";s:4:"link";s:103:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2008/04/freedom.html?showComment=1209679620000#c7421067613752662016";s:11:"author_name";s:14:"Jerry Williams";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/05412052291007471706";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}i:16;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:70:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-3098255445380560667";s:9:"published";s:29:"2008-04-14T16:45:00.000-06:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2008-04-14T16:45:00.000-06:00";s:5:"title";s:53:"Doug,I couldnt find your email address but I love ...";s:12:"atom_content";s:523:"Doug,<BR/><BR/>I couldnt find your email address but I love what you are doing with your sight.<BR/><BR/>We would love to have you as part of our cooperative at www.ldscooperative.com<BR/><BR/>We are coming on in a week or two and are looking for like minded individuals to discuss peace, environmental issues, fiscal responsibility etc.<BR/><BR/>Please do send me an email at stephenwellington@hotmail.com<BR/><BR/>We have some great people on board and it would be great to have you as a part of it.<BR/>Cheers,<BR/>Steve";s:9:"link_edit";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5734232286417425214/comments/default/3098255445380560667";s:9:"link_self";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5734232286417425214/comments/default/3098255445380560667";s:4:"link";s:129:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2008/04/finishing-job-and-fighting-to-win.html?showComment=1208213100000#c3098255445380560667";s:11:"author_name";s:7:"Stephen";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/17987967635743724105";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}i:17;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:70:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-2417675671512576727";s:9:"published";s:29:"2008-04-03T14:32:00.000-06:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2008-04-03T14:32:00.000-06:00";s:5:"title";s:53:"Chilling and unfortunately all too believable.  Th...";s:12:"atom_content";s:352:"Chilling and unfortunately all too believable.  Thanks for the link Doug.  You have succeeded in making me even more jaded.  Well, if we're going to stay in Iraq for 100 years, I can look at the bright side and say that we've made it through 5 years, only 95 more to go.  Maybe by the time my great-grandkids are getting married, we'll be leaving Iraq.";s:9:"link_edit";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5734232286417425214/comments/default/2417675671512576727";s:9:"link_self";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5734232286417425214/comments/default/2417675671512576727";s:4:"link";s:129:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2008/04/finishing-job-and-fighting-to-win.html?showComment=1207254720000#c2417675671512576727";s:11:"author_name";s:9:"Papasilas";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/10375827225852042151";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}i:18;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:70:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-8473579816990328865";s:9:"published";s:29:"2008-04-03T01:06:00.000-06:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2008-04-03T01:06:00.000-06:00";s:5:"title";s:53:"Also, if you skim that article you'll note that in...";s:12:"atom_content";s:964:"Also, if you skim that article you'll note that in that particular case it would appear that at least most workers were being paid ($10-$30 a day) so I suppose someone could argue that is hardly rampant "slave labor" in that part of the world.  But the allegations (which check out by the way, a number of independent organizations followed up on them and forced some changes at least in hiring practices by the military contractors there) . . . anyways the allegations were really more about lying to people that they were going to Kuwait or someplace safe and then taking them to warzone Baghdad.  They'd be stranded there and unable to earn enough to get passage out -- not to mention being locked in the metal shacks at night, etc. So although a defense could be made (c'mon it was good money!) until complaints were filed, our official US Embassy builder "First Kuwaiti" was raking in megabucks using grossly underpaid captives abducted under false pretenses.";s:9:"link_edit";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5734232286417425214/comments/default/8473579816990328865";s:9:"link_self";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5734232286417425214/comments/default/8473579816990328865";s:4:"link";s:129:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2008/04/finishing-job-and-fighting-to-win.html?showComment=1207206360000#c8473579816990328865";s:11:"author_name";s:4:"Doug";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/02005947277425774328";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}i:19;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:70:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-4475884679142561331";s:9:"published";s:29:"2008-04-03T00:55:00.000-06:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2008-04-03T00:55:00.000-06:00";s:5:"title";s:53:"Here's a link from Corpwatch:http://www.corpwatch....";s:12:"atom_content";s:935:"Here's a link from Corpwatch:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=14173 " REL="nofollow">http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=14173</A><BR/><BR/>As is typical, despite the heavy documentation by independent investigative reporters, there was almost no coverage of this story by the big corporate networks.  By the time the State Department had prepared their denials and mitigations nearly a year later, one or two of the corporate outlets like CNN (but not FOXNews for instance, lol) mentioned it in passing – billing it as potential scandal ("by no means over") but really just giving it a cursory blurb and closing with the official government line "nothing to see here folks. move on."<BR/><BR/>Here's an example:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0707/26/sitroom.03.html" REL="nofollow">http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0707/26/sitroom.03.html</A><BR/><BR/>I'm not jaded. :)";s:9:"link_edit";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5734232286417425214/comments/default/4475884679142561331";s:9:"link_self";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5734232286417425214/comments/default/4475884679142561331";s:4:"link";s:129:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2008/04/finishing-job-and-fighting-to-win.html?showComment=1207205700000#c4475884679142561331";s:11:"author_name";s:4:"Doug";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/02005947277425774328";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}i:20;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:70:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-3417206457591769917";s:9:"published";s:29:"2008-04-02T20:52:00.000-06:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2008-04-02T20:52:00.000-06:00";s:5:"title";s:53:"Doug,Can you give a link to what you are referring...";s:12:"atom_content";s:400:"Doug,<BR/><BR/>Can you give a link to what you are referring to in item 3?<BR/><I>3) We are employing slave labor to build a high walled city-within-a-city (larger than the Vatican) in Baghdad in order that Iraq (and their neighbors) never, ever forget who is really in charge over there.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm generally pretty aware of the news, but the slave labor angle is new to me.  Thanks,<BR/>Silas";s:9:"link_edit";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5734232286417425214/comments/default/3417206457591769917";s:9:"link_self";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5734232286417425214/comments/default/3417206457591769917";s:4:"link";s:129:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2008/04/finishing-job-and-fighting-to-win.html?showComment=1207191120000#c3417206457591769917";s:11:"author_name";s:9:"Papasilas";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/10375827225852042151";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}i:21;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:69:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-611293205834809591";s:9:"published";s:29:"2008-04-02T17:51:00.000-06:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2008-04-02T17:51:00.000-06:00";s:5:"title";s:53:"Leiandra said:--you guys don't cite referencesAgre...";s:12:"atom_content";s:1234:"Leiandra said:<BR/><BR/>--you guys don't cite references<BR/><BR/>Agreed.  I need to start doing that more often.  If you've read my previous year's blog, I sometimes did that.  But my most recent entry, this one, and my comments need better citations.<BR/><BR/>I spent years arguing some of these things with people until they showed me enough incontrovertible evidence to turn me into an activist.  It was one of those things.  Not that I'm as cool as the Saul to Paul Bible story, but once I realized the truth of some of these things I was like "Oh man, that's just not OK" and I've been looking for ways to get involved.<BR/><BR/>But it is way ineffective of me to claim things are 'largely ignored in the mainstream media' and then not give some accessible citations to what I'm talking about.  If I was you I likely wouldn't believe some of this either lol . . . a lot of it is simply outrageous.<BR/><BR/>I'll add some links to my two April posts (yeah, yeah I know it's the internet where you can read -- or write -- anything you want . . . I'll aggregate some credible sources -- when it's true it does get the attention of credible people even if it gets downplayed and subjected to "spin") and do a follow-up comment here.";s:9:"link_edit";s:104:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5493317307384305145/comments/default/611293205834809591";s:9:"link_self";s:104:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5493317307384305145/comments/default/611293205834809591";s:4:"link";s:102:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2008/04/freedom.html?showComment=1207180260000#c611293205834809591";s:11:"author_name";s:4:"Doug";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/02005947277425774328";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}i:22;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:70:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-6667591234971070347";s:9:"published";s:29:"2008-04-02T13:37:00.000-06:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2008-04-02T13:37:00.000-06:00";s:5:"title";s:53:"I guess the biggest qualm I have with both Doug, a...";s:12:"atom_content";s:559:"I guess the biggest qualm I have with both Doug, and now Silas, is that you guys don't site references.  I'm expected to just believe what you say and take it as fact.  If you're going to tell me that all Aliens are Green (and talking the fictitious UFO ones here), I'm the type of person that will look for a yellow one.  Unless you said, "According to the UFO census of 2006, 100% of all Aliens are Green."  Vague "reports" don't mean anything to me.<BR/><BR/>And I think Silas misunderstood my point.  I'll have to come back to it tomorrow to address that.";s:9:"link_edit";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5493317307384305145/comments/default/6667591234971070347";s:9:"link_self";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5493317307384305145/comments/default/6667591234971070347";s:4:"link";s:103:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2008/04/freedom.html?showComment=1207165020000#c6667591234971070347";s:11:"author_name";s:8:"Leiandra";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/01538165503955317466";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}i:23;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:70:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-8980976335162879686";s:9:"published";s:29:"2008-04-02T13:17:00.000-06:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2008-04-02T13:17:00.000-06:00";s:5:"title";s:53:"I have a couple of nits to pick with leiandra's li...";s:12:"atom_content";s:1865:"I have a couple of nits to pick with leiandra's line of reasoning.  Rationale for military action in Iraq is conflated with 9/11 not because of Iraqi involvement, but rather:<BR/><BR/>  "I bring 9/11 into the picture because it's a perfect example of what can and will happen if we do nothing"<BR/><BR/>The motives of the 9/11 conspiritors were not based on the abstract, but rather because in their eyes we were doing too much in their countries (Osama B. L. specifically mentions US military presence in Saudi Arabia).<BR/><BR/>The other nit I have to pick is the idea:<BR/><BR/>  "Could it be that we're making an example out of Iraq to deter other countries from interfering with us and pulling another 9/11"<BR/><BR/>I have serious issues with this for multiple reasons.  From a practical standpoint, an effective deterrent should be pointed at the (potential) offender and not a bystander.  In the case of global terrorism, Iraq is and has been a bystander.  Iraq was an enemy to Al Qaeda.  Attacking Iraq to deter Al Qaeda or other islamic terrorist groups is tantamount to telling Sweden that if they don't agree to stop shipping so many Volvos that we will attack Canada and occupy Montreal.  Morally, I see no justification for attacking a second party to attempt to influence someone else.  It is terrorism and hostage taking on a larger scale.<BR/><BR/>Conflating Iraq with a Global War on Terrorism is a huge leap of faith that breaks down quickly.  Military actions in Afghanistan are a much more hazy affair.  My complaints there fall more along practical grounds than moral.  There is justification for action there.  Whether that action is the best alternative is another discussion.  I have no qualms in stating that action in Iraq fails both the practical and moral tests we should exercise before military action.<BR/><BR/>Cheers,<BR/><BR/>Silas";s:9:"link_edit";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5493317307384305145/comments/default/8980976335162879686";s:9:"link_self";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5493317307384305145/comments/default/8980976335162879686";s:4:"link";s:103:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2008/04/freedom.html?showComment=1207163820000#c8980976335162879686";s:11:"author_name";s:9:"Papasilas";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/10375827225852042151";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}i:24;a:11:{s:2:"id";s:70:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.post-7007955511117300056";s:9:"published";s:29:"2008-04-02T12:52:00.000-06:00";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2008-04-02T12:52:00.000-06:00";s:5:"title";s:53:"Leiandra,You bring up a valid question.Does somebo...";s:12:"atom_content";s:2352:"Leiandra,<BR/><BR/>You bring up a valid question.<BR/><BR/>Does somebody need to police the world?  [And, if so, can we trust ourselves with the task?]<BR/><BR/>Our Founding Fathers were against the idea that any country "play Mom or Dad" in the world except perhaps by shining example (in the way you might look up to and and try to emulate some good quality that your parent embodied well).  The reason – and they wrote and wrote and wrote on the conundrum – is that they deemed it [exactly as you suggested] a 'really bad analogy'.<BR/><BR/>No country can legitimately lay claim to the superior wisdom and morality (and selfless love, etc.) that a parent [in theory at least] can and should have over the children with which they have been blessed.<BR/><BR/>It's a 'conundrum' though because -- as you accurately point out -- it is indeed a big, dangerous world out there and allowing every nation their sovereignty seems rather frightening.  But our Founders considered this and wrote extensively about it as well (and laid wise ground-rules for our own behaviour in the face of such danger).<BR/><BR/>Basically the fearmongers claim that conventional morality, 'just-war' theory, and 'Founding Fathers' philosophy no longer apply because the world is inconceivably more dangerous than it used to be.  Frankly, to me, that sounds like the same kind of argument that you-know-who used in the Mormon understanding of the War-in-Heaven.<BR/><BR/>As for WMD, it's a pretty ambiguous word.  The "WMD" that Saddam "used to have" or was found buried since the start of the war or might have spirited off to Syria was all of the non-nuclear type that we have been using on Iraq (my contention is that it's been irresponsible).<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, we are one of the only nations to still have large quantities of chemical and nuclear weapons (what you and I would probably more normally deem WMD I suppose).  Even those are on a slippery slope.  We have used both chemicals and radiation in Iraq.  (White Phosphorous and Uranium tipped shells)  In both cases, we simply re-classified weapons we used to say *nobody* should use, to be weapons that 'sometimes the good guys might need to use'. Meanwhile, though we have stopped using white phosphorous, we continue to litter the Iraqi countryside with expended radioactive uranium today as I write this.";s:9:"link_edit";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5493317307384305145/comments/default/7007955511117300056";s:9:"link_self";s:105:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/5493317307384305145/comments/default/7007955511117300056";s:4:"link";s:103:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/2008/04/freedom.html?showComment=1207162320000#c7007955511117300056";s:11:"author_name";s:4:"Doug";s:10:"author_uri";s:52:"https://www.blogger.com/profile/02005947277425774328";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";}}s:7:"channel";a:13:{s:2:"id";s:54:"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5519418903407202773.comments";s:7:"updated";s:29:"2011-04-03T01:34:52.787-06:00";s:5:"title";s:17:"Mormons for Peace";s:42:"link_http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#feed";s:58:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/feeds/comments/default";s:9:"link_self";s:65:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/comments/default";s:4:"link";s:36:"http://mormonsforpeace.blogspot.com/";s:8:"link_hub";s:32:"http://pubsubhubbub.appspot.com/";s:9:"link_next";s:95:"http://www.blogger.com/feeds/5519418903407202773/comments/default?start-index=26&max-results=25";s:11:"author_name";s:4:"Doug";s:10:"author_uri";s:51:"http://www.blogger.com/profile/02005947277425774328";s:12:"author_email";s:19:"noreply@blogger.com";s:9:"generator";s:7:"Blogger";s:10:"opensearch";a:3:{s:12:"totalresults";s:3:"140";s:10:"startindex";s:1:"1";s:12:"itemsperpage";s:2:"25";}}s:9:"textinput";a:0:{}s:5:"image";a:0:{}s:9:"feed_type";s:4:"Atom";s:12:"feed_version";N;s:8:"encoding";s:5:"UTF-8";s:16:"_source_encoding";s:0:"";s:5:"ERROR";s:0:"";s:7:"WARNING";s:0:"";s:19:"_CONTENT_CONSTRUCTS";a:6:{i:0;s:7:"content";i:1;s:7:"summary";i:2;s:4:"info";i:3;s:5:"title";i:4;s:7:"tagline";i:5;s:9:"copyright";}s:16:"_KNOWN_ENCODINGS";a:3:{i:0;s:5:"UTF-8";i:1;s:8:"US-ASCII";i:2;s:10:"ISO-8859-1";}s:5:"stack";a:0:{}s:9:"inchannel";b:0;s:6:"initem";b:0;s:9:"incontent";b:0;s:11:"intextinput";b:0;s:7:"inimage";b:0;s:17:"current_namespace";b:0;s:4:"etag";s:70:"W/"7eae7e47332ba7b2c94ecd4ee1b7feeead007d1084ce039b53dcfd07218b5801"
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